Slashdot is powered by your submissions, so send in your scoop
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Here is a short video [imgur.com] showing the process of swapping batteries on a scooter at a Gogoro battery station.
Thanks, that looks pretty simple, much like the propane bottle swap kiosks in the US, put your empty one in an empty slot, pay, new one pops open and you take it.
Thanks, that looks pretty simple, much like the propane bottle swap kiosks in the US, put your empty one in an empty slot, pay, new one pops open and you take it.
Of course, what sucks about the propane tank swapping is when you end up with a rusty nasty tank in exchange for the brand new one that just came with your BBQ grill.
For scooters where the battery isn't really that expensive it probably isn't as big of a deal, but for a car I'd be pretty damn pissed if I just swapped out my brand new battery for someone else's almost-worn-out beater. I guess it could work if you could buy a BEV without a battery, and the battery swap thing was a subscription service, but f
Buy a scooter with brand new batteries.
Sell the new batteries for cash. Use a portion of the cash to buy beater batteries and pocket the difference.
Use the beater batteries in the swap program.
If they don't account for you bringing fresh batteries to the table then work the system.
This is a common complaint when suggesting the battery swapping idea for electric cars. My question on the subject is how people don't guarantee they don't have the same problem with gasoline. How do you know you haven't gotten a bad tank of gas when you buy gasoline? With the batteries at least, it's possible for the batteries to come with a black box with information about their charge and discharge history that lets you know that you're trading your battery for one with similar capacity and similar specs
The only time I've ever come across bad gas was when I ate an entire pizza couple years ago..Apparently as I age I'm becoming lactose intolerant. As an old person once said, "I'm not impressed with the aging process."
Joking aside, do you actually monitor, for example, how much sediment is deposited in your tank when you fill up, what the octane of your gas actually is, to what degree it is gunking up your fuel injectors or spark plugs, etc.? Modern engines are pretty good at controlling O2 levels, etc. to deal with problematic fuel, but bad gas can still cause long-term issues for engines. So, unless the car outright won't start due to bad gas, you're unlikely to have noticed. The primary thing protecting you from bad g
The small batteries they use for mopeds are a lot easier to handle than large car batteries too. Faults are easier to detect because they have fewer cells and lower voltage (i.e. fewer cells in series).
The small batteries they use for mopeds are a lot easier to handle than large car batteries too. Faults are easier to detect because they have fewer cells and lower voltage (i.e. fewer cells in series).
The small batteries they use for mopeds are a lot easier to handle than large car batteries too. Faults are easier to detect because they have fewer cells and lower voltage (i.e. fewer cells in series).
For cars, I would expect large battery modules - probably too heavy for humans to lift - that would be autoloaded from underneath the car. You would park over the autoloader, it would line itself up under the car, raise up a lift to battery height, clamp on, unclamp the battery from the car and lower it, then reverse the process with the replacement. Then the car would run a quick battery test, then be ready to go.
Battery faults in individual cells are hard to detect in larger batteries, true. Usually they
Also, you have to remember that, mostly, people will not be exchanging batteries in their cars. Near home, you will pretty much always charge at home, or do conventional charging while parked somewhere.
I think you, like many people, vastly overestimate the number of people in the US that have a private driveway, much less a carport or garage where they can "charge their EV overnight"...as is often promoted as the general answer to people.
There are TONS of people that live in apartments, or...even if singl
I think you, like many people, vastly overestimate the number of people in the US that have a private driveway, much less a carport or garage where they can "charge their EV overnight"...as is often promoted as the general answer to people.
I think you, like many people, vastly overestimate the number of people in the US that have a private driveway, much less a carport or garage where they can "charge their EV overnight"...as is often promoted as the general answer to people.
I think you, like many people, vastly underestimate the need people who own cars have to park their cars. Once EVs hit critical mass, it will make sense for all parking spots that are chronically occupied to have EV charging infrastructure. It does not have to be fast chargers. As long as there is some profit in it, then the infrastructure will be built. People who don't live in their own houses with their own private driveways either live in apartments, or they are homeless. Homeless people with cars presu
Of course, what sucks about the propane tank swapping is when you end up with a rusty nasty tank in exchange for the brand new one that just came with your BBQ grill. For scooters where the battery isn't really that expensive it probably isn't as big of a deal, but for a car I'd be pretty damn pissed if I just swapped out my brand new battery for someone else's almost-worn-out beater.
Of course, what sucks about the propane tank swapping is when you end up with a rusty nasty tank in exchange for the brand new one that just came with your BBQ grill.
For scooters where the battery isn't really that expensive it probably isn't as big of a deal, but for a car I'd be pretty damn pissed if I just swapped out my brand new battery for someone else's almost-worn-out beater.
a) You won't be popping a car-sized battery in a "slot". You'll drive you car over a robotic thing and it would be changed without you ever seeing or touching anything.
b) I'm sure they'll monitor capacities and charge cycles, etc. Take the "beaters" out of circulation.
c) You might be able to pay for different capacities. It would make sense - cheap ones around town, more expensive ones for road trips.
So it turns out that battery swap becomes commercially viable when the battery units are small enough for a slim girl to pick one up with one hand.
That was a full grown Taiwanese man at the peak of his male virility, sir!
Or if the battery swap system is automated. You park your car in a spot over an in-ground battery swap system. As long as you parked roughly inside the lines, it aligns itself with your car, unlatches some standard latches to remove your old battery, lifts the new one into place and latches it, then triggers some standard diagnostics in your car, which gives the all clear and, volia, you're good to go. Requires car manufacturers to agree on some standard form factors for batteries, but pretty doable. If the
After seeing that little video,I must say that adoption of electrical scooters would take hardly any effort at all.
Let's see how those charging stations deal with temperatures common in Western Europe. Because of their location lots of countries in Asia do not experience the cold temperatures (Western-)European do. That I would consider that the main wrinkle in adoption.
For the rest, it looks like a robust enough, yet very simple to use system, hardware-wise.
The video doesn't show anything about the softwar
Let's see how those charging stations deal with temperatures common in Western Europe. Because of their location lots of countries in Asia do not experience the cold temperatures (Western-)European do. That I would consider that the main wrinkle in adoption.
Let's see how those charging stations deal with temperatures common in Western Europe. Because of their location lots of countries in Asia do not experience the cold temperatures (Western-)European do. That I would consider that the main wrinkle in adoption.
I imagine they would deal with it through the innovation of using a combination of heating and insulated doors on the charging station. If you want to extend that to after the battery has been placed in the scooter, then the scooters may need insulated battery compartments (potentially with a system that can circulate coolant around them to a radiator for when it does get hot) and an internal heating system for the batteries. They would need a standby mode to keep themselves warm from their own power when n
And here's a short read [gogoro.com] about how the company's business is money-losing, and more to the point, its Q4 revenue has fallen 20,8% YoY, and sales of hardware down 32,1%.
Battery swapping is a terrible business model. It only gets worse from here, as it benefits from stability in technology and standardization of packs, but the very nature of the rapid evolution of EVs - and the vast and growing diversity of needs (everything from mopeds to heavy mining trucks, in a vast diversity of vehicles of different leng
Battery swapping for mopeds has been going for a lot longer than these guys. Before they used lithium cells they used lead acid ones. Particularly in China, mopeds with lead acid batteries are still very popular. They are insanely dangerous too, loads of torque and virtually silent.
While most people charge at home, you can pull into a service shop and swap your battery for a charged one if needs be. They charge up your old battery and you collect it later, along with your deposit. Many businesses that use m
The connectors don't wear out or get damaged within months?
The connectors are good for 10,000 connects and disconnects. But the connectors connect to a connector with the same 10,000 connection limit. So you can disconnect the connector after 10,000 disconnects and swap it for a new connector with a fresh 10,000 disconnects. Unfortunately, the connector you connected to now supports only 9,999 additional replacements.
I made all of that up because who cares. Just replace the part.
The swapping idea sounds great until you swap it for a battery that is seriously degraded. Not really an issue with an ICE running on alternative fuels like H2.
The swapping idea sounds great until you swap it for a battery that is seriously degraded. Not really an issue with an ICE running on alternative fuels like H2.
"Degraded" batteries are the responsibility of the charging network. They should be monitoring battery health or at least charging cycles, and probably are.
A degraded battery won't get you as far. Contaminated gas will get you as far as the repair shop where the worst case scenario is thousands of dollars and downtime measured in weeks, not miles. When trying to compare the two, don't.
Hardly the same as swapping batteries on an 800v electric car...
How so? Ok, the batteries are bigger, but what keeps us from developing a machine that picks up batteries from standardized slots in a car and replacing them with batteries in the same deal? I would think that this is heaps easier to accomplish than the charging we currently have. Just drive up to a replacement station, get the replacer to pick up your standardized battery, replace it with another one and you're back on the road in 5 minutes or less.
Yes, that would require standardization of batteries. You think any manufacturer could escape it once it starts taking off? DARE to be non-standard and watch your business waste away.
If you break down all human transport, swapping not only batteries, but many things, including passenger carriages on vehicles, is most efficient. The reason is a truck can move 40 1,000 lb passenger carriages for the energy cost of 4 cars, and a train could do 4,000 for the energy cost of 40. But only moving these full enclosed carriages would give people the benefits of cars missing on public transport.
So I could load the whole office on your transport and have it carry me to and from the workplace.
Hmm... I have an even better idea, let's cut out the middle man and not transport the office but just the data.
So I could load the whole office on your transport and have it carry me to and from the workplace. Hmm... I have an even better idea, let's cut out the middle man and not transport the office but just the data.
So I could load the whole office on your transport and have it carry me to and from the workplace.
Hmm... I have an even better idea, let's cut out the middle man and not transport the office but just the data.
Or just work for Twitter (now) and live *at* the office. :-)
Before I work for a muskrat, I'd rather shoot myself.
> but what keeps us from developing a machine that picks up batteries from standardized slots in a car and replacing them with batteries in the same deal?
Economics. Quite possibly laws, too, depending on the country.
And this particular drum can't be beaten enough; The actual need for a "5-minute fill-up" is such an edge case there is little to no incentive to develop such a system. It's nice perhaps, but the compromises needed to make it happen are too much for what is merely convenience.
> but what keeps us from developing a machine that picks up batteries from standardized slots in a car and replacing them with batteries in the same deal? Economics. Quite possibly laws, too, depending on the country.
> but what keeps us from developing a machine that picks up batteries from standardized slots in a car and replacing them with batteries in the same deal?
Economics. Quite possibly laws, too, depending on the country.
You have laws in your country that stop you changing a battery?
And this particular drum can't be beaten enough; The actual need for a "5-minute fill-up" is such an edge case there is little to no incentive to develop such a system.
And this particular drum can't be beaten enough; The actual need for a "5-minute fill-up" is such an edge case there is little to no incentive to develop such a system.
My not wanting to spend an hour kicking my heels at a battery charging station makes me an "edge case"? It is what makes me, and millions of others, not want an EV. With battery swapping I'd get an EV like a shot.
> You have laws in your country that stop you changing a battery?
There may be laws that significantly muddy the waters regarding ownership and liability, and it's not impossible that swapping a battery might require filing paperwork to update the vehicle's history not entirely unlike how swapping an engine might in some jurisdictions. It might also not be legal to sell a car and its battery separately, or lease the battery separately, which would make most swapping schemes non-starters.
My not wanting to spend an hour kicking my heels at a battery charging station makes me an "edge case"? It is what makes me, and millions of others, not want an EV.
The OP was talking about the activity being an edge case, not your feelings. Your feelings are sadly not an edge case. Your need to charge at a filling station generally speaking is. Charging is only needed at filling stations for long journeys, and that is indisputably an edge case. Secondly, you only need to wait an hour if you're really trying
And this particular drum can't be beaten enough; The actual need for a "5-minute fill-up" is such an edge case there is little to no incentive to develop such a system. It's nice perhaps, but the compromises needed to make it happen are too much for what is merely convenience.
We currently have 5-minute fill ups why should we take a step backwards and have to deal with longer wait times, etc?
Remember, a LOT of people do not have off street private parking to "charge overnight"....
Israel had a battery-swap system like what you describe. Didn't last.
The commercial non-viability of battery swap for cars is not the mechanical difficulty.
The real issue is that the batteries are a major cost compared to the car, and owners don't want to trade out their batteries for a pack that has an unknown history. If my brand-new Model Y has 200 miles on it, ready for its first charge, I do your wonderful automated battery swap and suddenly my range goes from 314 down to 280. Which is actually
The real issue is that the batteries are a major cost compared to the car, and owners don't want to trade out their batteries for a pack that has an unknown history. ... I do your wonderful automated battery swap and suddenly my range goes from 314 down to 280. Which is actually normal degradation for a 4-year old battery pack.
The real issue is that the batteries are a major cost compared to the car, and owners don't want to trade out their batteries for a pack that has an unknown history. ... I do your wonderful automated battery swap and suddenly my range goes from 314 down to 280. Which is actually normal degradation for a 4-year old battery pack.
What you would lose on the swings you would gain on the roundabouts. Maybe the next swap after would bring a newer battery again. Alternatively the charging station could measure each battery's condition and the swap costs you accordingly - no difference in principle to metering liquid fuel. People swap butane cylinders for RVs and boats without getting emotionally attached to "their" shiny new cylinder.
You're not wrong, but the market itself just doesn't see it that way.
The same people who will buy a lottery ticket have the feeling they will always "lose" on a battery swap.
How so? Ok, the batteries are bigger, but what keeps us from developing a machine that picks up batteries from standardized slots in a car and replacing them with batteries in the same deal?
How so? Ok, the batteries are bigger, but what keeps us from developing a machine that picks up batteries from standardized slots in a car and replacing them with batteries in the same deal?
Problem with cars is, the batteries are much bigger and much more awkward to remove from the vehicle. They weigh about 500 kg. People talked about this a few years ago, having the battery drop out of the bottom of the car either into a pit or onto a roller platform and having a robot swap it out.
Given how much battery capacity matters, I wouldn't be surprised if many batteries are wedged into all sorts of nooks and crannies making removing it quite difficult.
Problem with cars is, the batteries are much bigger and much more awkward to remove from the vehicle. ... People talked about this a few years ago, having the battery drop out of the bottom of the car either into a pit or onto a roller platform and having a robot swap it out.
Problem with cars is, the batteries are much bigger and much more awkward to remove from the vehicle. ... People talked about this a few years ago, having the battery drop out of the bottom of the car either into a pit or onto a roller platform and having a robot swap it out.
Why is that a problem?
Currently the car is built around the battery. The battery containment is part of the load bearing frame. If you want to swap batteries you need a separate frame. Since the battery still needs a containment you end up with a heavier vehicle and therefore shorter range.
You can't really hang that much weight on the ends of the car either. It's got to be amidships, and that limits accessibility as well.
You could get to the battery from the bottom, like a giant Dewalt drill battery, but now the electrical conta
> what keeps us from developing a machine that picks up batteries from standardized slots in a car and replacing them with batteries in the same deal?
Lobbyists of every car manufacturer in existence and the politicians they buy. (Sorry if you didn't want the real answer)
Well, then it's time to ask them why we can standardize a cellphone charger but not an EV battery pack.
How so? Ok, the batteries are bigger, but what keeps us from developing a machine that picks up batteries from standardized slots in a car
How so? Ok, the batteries are bigger, but what keeps us from developing a machine that picks up batteries from standardized slots in a car
You've ignored a lot of fundamental restrictions in that statement. Let's break it down:
The batteries are bigger: Much bigger. No longer human movable. You've added the requirement for a machine: You've dramatically increased the cost of battery swapping infrastructure and increased its chance of failure. You've addressed the fundamental differences in the battery but ignored the implications of it: the batteries in a car are bigger, so much bigger that currently all EVs attempt to absolutely maximise the spa
You could use several packs. On the video posted above, those scooters use two modules, so a car could just have more, like 16. It's still a bit of a pain to swap one by one, but it beats waiting half hour.
You could use several packs. On the video posted above, those scooters use two modules, so a car could just have more, like 16. It's still a bit of a pain to swap one by one, but it beats waiting half hour.
You could use several packs. On the video posted above, those scooters use two modules, so a car could just have more, like 16. It's still a bit of a pain to swap one by one, but it beats waiting half hour.
The car would have bigger packs, and a machine in a pit would do it.
"Hardly the same as swapping batteries on an 800v electric car..."
I have a revolutionary flashlight with swappable batteries.
Hardly the same as swapping batteries on an 800v electric car...
Hardly the same as swapping batteries on an 800v electric car...
Give the global economy another 6-12 months. Then tell me how many citizens can afford more than a scooter.
...I can see manufacturers balking at the idea of having to design around standard battery compartments, especially after automakers building gas-powered cars already got used to the swap away from flat-cube shapes under vehicle trunk-floors that had been common for sixty+ years into designing fuel tanks that made use of the properties of liquids conforming to irregularly shaped containers.
If battery electrics had come along in the late seventies or early eighties it would have been fairly straightforward,
Yeah it makes a lot more sense from a design, handling and safety perspective to put them under the seats and probaly more automakers are going to go the Tesla route where the batteries are not just under the seats but also a structural part of the unibody frame.
We are seeing a focus on improving battery lifespan and we are already pretty close to the batteries able to last as long as the rest of an average vehichle lifespan so I don't think it's soo much of a concern but whats absolutely needed is recyclin
Well, for what it's worth I think the jury's still out on the real lifespan of 100% electrics. For most petroleum-powered cars the lifespans were usually dictated by failure of something expensive, like a transmissions or expensive powertrain control systems, or sometimes due to catastophic failure of engines. Those sorts of things in those forms may be irrelevant in electrics. Equivalents for electrics might be expenive variable-frequency drives, electronics controls, etc. Both types would be susceptib
True, we are only now starting to see the used market for EV's start to materialize (was acutally interesting is that the price floor dropped out from under used Tesla's over the course of a few weeks once they did their price drop)
Also depends where you live, in the northeast and midwest US (it is called the rust belt after all) a lot of cars hit the scrapyard before even 150k or less just due to frames rotting out.
A VFD or control board or even the lectric motors though are nowhere near as expensive as a
I can see manufacturers balking at the idea of having to design around standard battery compartments,...
(Looks at all the gadgets I own which take AA batteries...)
So while I applaud these efforts, I doubt that we'll see them integrated into more expensive electric cars...
It seems to me that for a lot of driving in urban areas--which represents quite a few passenger miles out there--having a smaller scooter or even a skateboard style scooter makes a lot more sense than a single person driving around in a 4-
The biggest problem in an American application is the weather. High density cities where city-vehicles work best also have a lot of inclement weather. If one has to also have a vehicle that can perform well in inclement weather to shelter the driver from the weather, then it's a tough argument to convince that driver to also have something that doesn't perform this way.
The cities in the US that don't have snow are also largely suburban in nature, where residents often have to drive long distances, using f
...I can see manufacturers balking at the idea of having to design around standard battery compartments,
...I can see manufacturers balking at the idea of having to design around standard battery compartments,
About that... https://www.cycleworld.com/sto... [cycleworld.com] It may not be 100% what you're thinking of, but this is something they have considered/are working on.
After I'd made my post I was curious if anyone had come up with some kind of replacement or supplementary battery pack for that hybrid Wrangler I mentioned. During that search I found references to battery trailers, essentially extending the range by using a specially-built travel trailer that has those batteries. Downside, the extra rolling resistance and airflow for having the trailer takes away some of what the extra batteries give.
And that's basically a fundamental problem for 100% electrics, it's so
it's so damn easy to carry a 5-gallon jerry can to take extra gas
it's so damn easy to carry a 5-gallon jerry can to take extra gas
I once tried to fill up a 5 gallon can with electrons to refill an EV, but everyone was so negative about it! The police wanted to (dis-)charge me.
You Own the vehicle, you rent the battery. If the battery degrades over time, not your problem, that does not limit de useful life of your car.
But, there are some wrinkles that need ironing out:
If the battery bursts into flames on its own, Who is responsible? How is the economic damage settled? If you get in an accident and damage the battery, who is responsible? How is the economic damage settled? If an act of good damages the battery? who is responsible? How is the economic damage settled? Probably that will be handled throug insurance companies and such, but still...
I'd really love one of these in my country!
If the battery bursts into flames on its own, Who is responsible?
If the battery bursts into flames on its own, Who is responsible?
That doesn't happen. You don't own the battery that means you're not likely to go on Amazon and buy a the cheapest Chinese knock-off piece of shit and attach it to a completely incompatible and equally cheap charger.
Battery fires practically never happen when you use vendor approved batteries in vendor approved devices, and typically the biggest risk is charging (which in this case the vendor does themselves). And where the rare fires have actually happened in the above cases it has usually resulted in issu
If the battery bursts into flames on its own, Who is responsible? That doesn't happen. You don't own the battery that means you're not likely to go on Amazon and buy a the cheapest Chinese knock-off piece of shit and attach it to a completely incompatible and equally cheap charger. Battery fires practically never happen when you use vendor approved batteries in vendor approved devices
If the battery bursts into flames on its own, Who is responsible?
If the battery bursts into flames on its own, Who is responsible?
That doesn't happen. You don't own the battery that means you're not likely to go on Amazon and buy a the cheapest Chinese knock-off piece of shit and attach it to a completely incompatible and equally cheap charger.
Battery fires practically never happen when you use vendor approved batteries in vendor approved devices
Try verifying this claim on your Samsung Galaxy Note 7. The "approved batteries" claim is nothing but propaganda from companies that sell the cheapest batteries they can source under "premium brands" for outrageous prices.
Try verifying this claim on your Samsung Galaxy Note 7.
Try verifying this claim on your Samsung Galaxy Note 7.
Let me check my claim: And where the rare fires have actually happened in the above cases it has usually resulted in issuing of recalls And let's see what happened: Samsung issued a recall https://pages.samsung.com/us/n... [samsung.com]
Yep, basically 100% exactly as I said. Want to try again?
The "approved batteries" claim is nothing but propaganda from companies that sell the cheapest batteries they can source under "premium brands" for outrageous prices.
The "approved batteries" claim is nothing but propaganda from companies that sell the cheapest batteries they can source under "premium brands" for outrageous prices.
Nope. It's directly born out in the data of fires from electrical mobility devices. They are all caused by people buying batteries made of Chinesium instead of Lithium, or chargers which are the same.
But don't take my word for it, ta
>That doesn't happen Except for all the times it's clearly happened Starting your argument off on a fantasy shows you either don't understand the topic or are trying to manipulate people
Except for all the times it's clearly happened
Starting your argument off on a fantasy shows you either don't understand the topic or are trying to manipulate people
I addressed the times it does happen. If you want to try and look like you have a remotely functioning brain it helps to have an attention span longer than 38 words.
Any of these question can be answered by "how is it handled if your gas has the same problem?"
1. The battery manufacturer is responsible for this. There would be standards in place that battery makers would have to comply with, if their battery doesn't, here comes the lawsuit.
2. You get into an accident, you're responsible. Unless you can show that the battery is somehow faulty and was the reason. How else could it be?
3. Act of god ... like what? I really have a problem wrapping my head aroucd this one.
And this is different from these things affecting ICE cars in what way exactly?
If the battery bursts into flames on its own, Who is responsible? How is the economic damage settled?
If the battery bursts into flames on its own, Who is responsible? How is the economic damage settled?
Same as a gas car, the person who is "at fault" but both drivers carry insurance.
If you get in an accident and damage the battery, who is responsible? How is the economic damage settled?
If you get in an accident and damage the battery, who is responsible? How is the economic damage settled?
Same as a gas car, all drivers carry insurance, same as if damage to your engine.
If an act of good damages the battery? who is responsible? How is the economic damage settled?
If an act of good damages the battery? who is responsible? How is the economic damage settled?
Your insurance if the battery is damaged, likely every driver has "ownership" of the current battery they are using. If the battery was damaged by another customer or was defective then the user has some grounds to sue the company and/or their insurance pays out and they seem remittance from the company.
95% of this already settled in existing insr
But, there are some wrinkles that need ironing out
But, there are some wrinkles that need ironing out
These are already ironed out.
If the battery bursts into flames on its own, Who is responsible? How is the economic damage settled?
If the battery bursts into flames on its own, Who is responsible? How is the economic damage settled?
The battery maker. In court. Goes under personal injury or property damage. Better hope you have a domestic supplier because if it's foreign, then you just have a damaged car with zero recourse. See US District Court Ethridge v. Samsung
If you get in an accident and damage the battery, who is responsible? How is the economic damage settled?
If you get in an accident and damage the battery, who is responsible? How is the economic damage settled?
Deposits. If the battery is damaged you don't get your deposit back. Kind of settles itself. Literally this is how propane exchange works and believe it or not, all the things surrounding that are basically the same here. Few exceptions be
I'm actually slightly amazed that the market share is so low. Scooters are pretty much the perfect use case for batteries - light-weight, don't need enormous KWh packs, the cost differential isn't huge, etc.
I'm honestly kind of surprised Taiwan hasn't mandated or heavily, heavily subsidized their adoption, if simply for pollution control (scooter engines are kind of dirty).
Is the cost differential really that even now? I know in many places gas scooters are very cheap
Is the cost differential really that even now? I know in many places gas scooters are very cheap
Is the cost differential really that even now? I know in many places gas scooters are very cheap
Yeah. Even here in Europe the cheapest petrol scooter I could find on a quick search was 100EUR more expensive than the cheapest e-scooter 1100 for the e-scooter and 1200 for a petrol. That is from large scooter specialist shops that sell both and have a huge range, if you look hard maybe results may vary but from small specialist shops it's hard to do a 1-1 comparison. It's key to remember that scooters are far smaller and simpler than cars, the drive train makes up nearly all of the cost of a scooter and
Thanks, that is actually good to hear since I know those little moped engines are pretty dirty otherwise.
I'm actually slightly amazed that the market share is so low. Scooters are pretty much the perfect use case for batteries - light-weight, don't need enormous KWh packs, the cost differential isn't huge, etc. I'm honestly kind of surprised Taiwan hasn't mandated or heavily, heavily subsidized their adoption, if simply for pollution control (scooter engines are kind of dirty).
I'm actually slightly amazed that the market share is so low. Scooters are pretty much the perfect use case for batteries - light-weight, don't need enormous KWh packs, the cost differential isn't huge, etc.
I'm honestly kind of surprised Taiwan hasn't mandated or heavily, heavily subsidized their adoption, if simply for pollution control (scooter engines are kind of dirty).
12% of the market in a short amount of time is quite remarkable. Remember that a brand new scooter has to be purchased, and scooters tend to be purchased by not wealthy people. That initial cost can be prohibitive. However, just like with Tesla, the non-low-income buyers are the first adopters. Then the larger market follows after a while, when some personal incomes rise, word of mouth increases, and old scooters are replaced.
Where I can see this technology explode is in China. Beijing's scooters have
Battery electric scooters have a bad rep because they are popular in China. In China they are very dangerous, because the scooters are nearly silent. They are also seen as being something poor people buy because range and speed are limited, but they are cheaper to operate than fossil fuel powered ones.
The other issue is the subscription model. People are reluctant to get into subscriptions, especially for things they rely on.
The term EV has some baggage with it, specifically the implication that we're talking about cars. I've never heard an electric scooter referred to as an "EV", only ever as electric scooters.
That said this idea is brilliant and electric scooters and e-bikes are the perfect application for it since the batteries are small enough that they can be easily handled. The idea of "swapping" infrastructure goes back a long time, and even now that's what we do with propane cylinders, so why not batteries too.
Scooters are simple and short-lived. Swappable batteries are not a constraint on a form factor perfected long ago. Scooter wear parts are trivial to access and cost little to replace.
Cars are complex with very different structures which must be crash-resistant. Removable batteries will be considerably heavier along with adjacent structure and centralized to a standard form-factor constraining future designs.
Stocking a hundred scooter batteries is trivial. Doing that for 100 autos is a major expense plus han
This is kind of an argument for urban Americans and Europeans to use more scooters and fewer cars.
Hordes of scooters in the US would just further clog urban roads with human speed bumps. Their virtues are being small and cheap while inferior to proper motorcycles of similar size.
Scooters etc mostly exist in the US to avoid licensing, as do fast e-bicycles. I've many motorcycles but would only use something scooter-sized as a campground/swap meet pit bike to avoid dying.
The assumption of many is that some range-shattering battery technology is on the horizon. You create a massive network to solve today's problems, and become obsolete before you can recoup the capital. Once battery packs that take a vehicle (scooter/car/truck/bus) some reasonably long distance, perhaps 8 hours of driving or longer, then swapping them becomes unnecessary for the vast majority of people. The other assumption is that ultra fast battery charging will be like a 5 minute fill up at the gas statio
Great idea, but perhaps only suited to specific global locations.
There's NO way I'd ride a scooter where I live - not a damn chance. I'm in the UK, in a medium sized town - and the roads are massively dominated by vehicles that make scooter riding on those roads exceptionally dangerous. The idea of commuting on a scooter, with huge trucks and buses hurtling past me? - uh, no, I think I'd rather be in a car that can cope - something with some power to get me out of the way of problems - some serious accelerati
I should elaborate - "that's where we're at now", meaning we haven't solved the problem yet.
There's no way for an EV to get a charge for say, 100 miles, in 2 or 3 minutes. You could argue we not trying to compete with fossil fuels in terms of refueling, but that's the way consumers look at it - I sure do.
I can refuel my diesel car to get me 100 miles, in about 90 seconds - but I'd be ok with 5 minutes.
That's currently not possible with EV's - and until it is, it will hold back adoption.
1) structural battery packs. No quick swap there.
2) faster charging. This is what the market says it wants. Nobody has ever talked about swapping gas tanks out and EVs should be no different.
It would be easier to clean up the internal combustion engine
It would be easier to clean up the internal combustion engine
I don't know if you've noticed, but a LOT of work has been done on that, too. We don't do just one thing, we do many things.
Battery swapping doesn't need to be done daily, presumably 90% of the time they'll just charge the scooter at home overnight. Battery swapping is a good option to have for certain long trips.
This is interesting to see people work so hard on making electric vehicles attractive in a society that is already accustomed to the convenience of hydrocarbon fueled vehicles.
Wait you have to waste your time to DRIVE to a "filling station" once a week just so you can keep your car running? I think what you mean to say is you are accustomed to the inconveniences of hydrocarbon fuels so thoroughly you don't even realise how inconvenient they are.
By definition that they are vehicles which are electric.
I agree it's (intentionally?) confusing since "EV" is associated almost universally with electric cars, but technically correct is the best kind of correct. =Smidge=
There may be more comments in this discussion. Without JavaScript enabled, you might want to turn on Classic Discussion System in your preferences instead.
10,000 Dogs are Registered for Workplace Visits at Amazon
Microsoft .NET 8 Will Bolster Linux Support
ASHes to ASHes, DOS to DOS.